[00:00:00] Intro: You are listening to Parliament Matters, a Hansard Society production, supported by the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust. Learn more at hansardsociety.org.uk/PM.
[00:00:17] Ruth Fox: Welcome to Parliament Matters Whipping Yarns, our series peering into the hidden world of Westminster's whips. I'm Ruth Fox.
[00:00:24] Mark D'Arcy: And I'm Mark D'Arcy. In 2015, the Scottish National Party went from being a bitplayer minority party in the Commons to a formidable third force with around 50 MPs throughout the subsequent Brexit parliaments.
[00:00:37] Ruth Fox: But the twist is they didn't really want to be there. Their aim was Scottish independence which would have meant no SNP MPs at all.
[00:00:44] Mark D'Arcy: So, for much of that time, their Chief Whip was Patrick Grady, and we asked him what it was like to arrive in that 2015 Parliament with a big contingent of MPs and a kind of sense of manifest destiny that independence was within their grasp.
[00:00:58] Patrick Grady: It was an election of quite considerable surprises, I think. People hadn't expected that the Conservatives would return with a majority, and we hadn't expected such an overwhelming win. We felt post 2014 that the SNP was poised to do possibly as well as it had ever done at Westminster, but the scale of the result was, was quite a surprise.
[00:01:21] So there was a lot to take in for the whole group. First of all, just to get to know each other, and then to get to know the ways and means, uh, to coin a phrase, of Westminster. And we were quite determined. We'd been elected on a manifesto to work very constructively, but to speak up for Scotland, make Scotland's voice heard.
[00:01:39] So we were prepared to shake things up and not simply do as we were told. And some of that manifested itself very early on, in terms of applause in the chamber, for example, and the breakfast wars, as they were called, when we tried to establish our seating entitlement.
[00:01:57] Mark D'Arcy: Oh yes, with Dennis Skinner, you had a bit of a sort of border skirmish between yourself and the Labour Party over Dennis Skinner's particular customary seat on the front bench.
[00:02:05] Patrick Grady: Yes, we did. So there were a few of us who were sort of, um, encouraged to arrive early for the precise bong of 8am when the doorkeepers turned the key and opened the chamber to ensure that we secured as many seats in the front row as possible. And that went on for at least a couple of weeks. And then I think eventually a detente was reached and Dennis and a few of his pals had the first three or four seats and then the SNP front bench became the remainder of those spaces.
[00:02:30] Mark D'Arcy: And what was it like in terms of, um, the culture of the parliamentary party. I mean the SNP before that election had I think six MPs. I remember actually seeing them all literally getting into the same lift at one point and having a joke with your then leader Angus MacNeil about that. And then suddenly you're 56. So it's quantum leap in numbers and that must have meant that even the old hands weren't really quite sure how to act now.
[00:02:54] Patrick Grady: Yes, I think that's probably fair. Of course, I can't really compare because I wasn't one of those old hands. They would, you know, the group of six would appear at SNP conferences and party meetings and things like that, full of all kinds of stories and anecdotes and tales of their frustrations of the Westminster system, especially in comparison with the Scottish Parliament, which has tried to adopt much more 21st century approaches to its procedures.
[00:03:22] So I think you'd have to ask them how they felt having all of these new colleagues, but some of us knew each other from previous SNP relationships. You know, we'd come through the youth wing or party branches or city associations together, but others were relatively new because that was the outcome of the independence referendum that lots of people had been enthused about Scottish politics. And so we had a number of people whose experience in the SNP was not as longstanding. But that brought a huge range of skills and experience. And we had people with all kinds of different walks of life. So Philippa Whitford, who had been a surgeon, John Nicholson with his experience in the media, Joanna Cherry, a very eminent lawyer.
[00:03:57] So lots of different people coming with a whole range of experience. And I think that really helped us. It also meant that there were quite obvious people to put into certain roles in terms of shadowing the front benches because we had to rise to that challenge of being the third party as well and the specific requirements that come with that.
[00:04:14] You know, there are rights as the third party but equally there are responsibilities, so a front bench had to be put together that could shadow the relevant government departments and you have a sort of secondary role actually keeping an eye on what the official opposition is doing and in a sense holding them to account as well.
[00:04:28] Ruth Fox: And how do you find out about those roles and responsibilities as the third party when so many of you are new?
[00:04:35] Patrick Grady: Well, we certainly benefited from the wise experience of the group of six that had been there previously and Mike Weir who was the Chief Whip between 2015 and 17 had a wealth of experience. I think he'd served on the Panel of Chairs and he had a really supportive approach as the Whip. He was particularly aware of the younger members who had young families who had a distance to travel to make sure that they were supported and he was very good on encouraging those of us who took an interest in procedural matters to develop that interest and help be part of the team that could make our group act as effectively as possible.
[00:05:13] Mark D'Arcy: I got the impression that there was a little bit of a tendency to do performance art, I remember there's one occasion when you were all whistling Ode to Joy during some division over Brexit, for example.
[00:05:23] Patrick Grady: Yes, a lot of that was quite spontaneous, which I think is why it works.
[00:05:30] Mark D'Arcy: I did wonder that, whether this is something that you'd actually sort of planned as a kind of happening.
[00:05:34] Patrick Grady: No, so the Ode to Joy was very spontaneous. It was a big crunch Brexit vote, and we wanted to mark that Scotland had voted to remain within the European Union. And one of our colleagues just sort of started humming it. Others took it up and then suddenly, I think it's Patricia Gibson, the, the footage will show started conducting us and then Lindsay was in the chair. Lindsay Hoyle was the Deputy Speaker at the time, and he was not impressed and called us to order. But it made, it was obviously Today in Parliament played it, but I think it was clipped on the German news, but there was a spontaneity about it. And I think that's what has helped have the impact that they had I think if you try to force that kind of thing it doesn't work. People can see that it's forced. But it may be reflected a kind of collective will to try to push the boundaries
[00:06:22] Mark D'Arcy: Of course the big procedural change that those of you who are interested in procedure in the SNP were immediately on the receiving end of was EVEL - English Votes for English Laws - the procedure that restricted the rights of Scottish MPs to vote on England only legislation, which the SNP was not at all amused by.
[00:06:41] Patrick Grady: No, and of course we had always, and still do, operate a sort of self denying ordinance, and we generally, as a rule, won't vote on matters that are exclusively devolved to Scotland and apply exclusively to England and Wales. Now there might be occasions, and there have been and there could well be in the future, where we can see a bleed over, consequentials or whatever. So we reserve the right to make that choice. But that was the point. It was, it should be our choice as Scottish Members of Parliament, not government ministers, or as we said at the time, the Speaker being put into a very invidious position of having to declare a bill subject to the EVEL procedures. So we took issue with them right from the start. They were rather ill thought through, they were particularly cumbersome and they made no real difference while there was a stable government with a strongish majority between 2015 and 2017 anyway, because that government was always going to get its way. The parliaments that followed, they were subject to much more complication and we made the most of that.
[00:07:42] Ruth Fox: Another event I remember, I don't know whether it was orchestrated or not, was you tried to force a number of votes when, uh, England versus Columbia was playing during the World Cup, and to try and ensure that all the MPs who wanted to go off and watch the match actually had to stick around in the, the chamber to vote.
[00:07:57] Patrick Grady: Well, that was actually tied in with the dispute we had about EVEL. It was both to do with EVEL and also to do with, uh, Brexit, I think the, um, Internal Market Act had been forced through a few weeks previously and of course that had led to the walkout at Prime Minister's Questions, but we were still upset about the Internal Market Act. And we had been told by the then Leader of the House, Chris Grayling, when EVEL was first introduced that the way that Scotland could still have its voice heard on matters where there were consequentials, Barnett consequentials, was through the Estimates process.
[00:08:29] And that was the night of an Estimates vote. So we'd had an Estimates debate. As it happens, it was on the spending of the Scotland Office, I think, or spending in devolved areas. So it had been an SNP led debate. And then we were perfectly entitled to push the divisions. And there were five motions on the Order Paper to approve five different aspects of government expenditures.
[00:08:48] Billions of pounds. I mean, we could have a whole separate conversation, Ruth, and I know you would enjoy that, about Supply and Estimates and financial scrutiny. So we were well within our rights. Now, the fact that it happened to be on the night of the English quarterfinal against Colombia, certainly raised awareness of the fact that this was something that the SNP were doing.
[00:09:07] Again, I would say it was quite spontaneous. We hadn't sat weeks in advance and said, aha, it was really on the day. We were looking through the business and realising, well, in any event, I think we would have wanted to divide on the Estimates. And then, of course, the Estimates votes always happen at 7pm. And it just so happened to coincide.
[00:09:23] Mark D'Arcy: But there was, wasn't there, a certain sly relish.
[00:09:26] Patrick Grady: I mean, I think the record will show that the Deputy Speaker had to send the Sergeant at Arms into the lobby on a number of occasions to get us all out. We weren't running through the lobby and it caused some discontent on the government benches, but I think it made the point.
[00:09:42] That's what we were there to do, was use the opportunities. I did the next day make a point of ensuring that various, uh, support offices - for the doorkeepers, the Hansard clerks, the tellers, or the division clerks, and so on - were suitably recognised for their efforts with boxes of chocolates, because while we're making a point with MPs and government ministers and so on who we were perfectly entitled to tie up, it was slightly inconvenient for the staff that have to make this thing happen as well.
[00:10:12] Mark D'Arcy: And you mentioned it earlier as well, there was the occasion where I think over, as you say, the UK Internal Market Act, sNP MPs marched out of Prime Minister's Question Time. What was that exactly about and what did it, if anything, achieve?
[00:10:28] Patrick Grady: So again, we were wanting to show our severe displeasure with the Internal Market Act, which I think was one of the first pieces of legislation to have been put through the UK Parliament without the legislative consent of the devolved nation that it affected, in Scotland. And we felt it was important to really demonstrate our concern about that.
[00:10:48] So, if you remember what happened on the day was that Ian made that point and he asked the Prime Minister if she would take action to resolve it either through fresh legislation or discussion with the Scottish Government. She wasn't prepared to do that so then Ian attempted to move a motion that the House do sit in private.
[00:11:03] Mark D'Arcy: This is Ian Blackford, who was then the SNP group leader.
[00:11:05] Patrick Grady: Yes, Ian Blackford, who was then the SNP group leader, um, attempted to move a motion that the House do sit in private, which is a long standing procedural technique, normally seen on a Friday, it essentially acts as a quorum check. And the Speaker, John Bercow, decided, having not necessarily ever had to consider this before, that he would not accept the motion during Prime Minister's Questions.
[00:11:26] He said, if you really want to push this, I will hold a division. after the end of the question session. Ian refused to accept that decision so he didn't resume his seat and for that reason the Speaker expelled him from the chamber and the rest of us left in solidarity. And that was broadcast live on TV, it was quite dramatic scenes.
[00:11:46] Of course the official feed of the House of Commons just cuts to the Speaker but the broadcasters I think have access so some of the footage is still there. And it showed quite dramatically, I think, our strength of feeling. It certainly had a big effect back up in Scotland. There was a spike in SNP membership.
[00:12:02] I think it was a very visible demonstration of how we want to make our presence felt and how we want to make Scotland's voice heard. I think it did help the government, and the votes a few weeks after that, I think it did help them realise that we were quite serious about making our voice heard. And they hopefully, I think, took us a little bit more seriously thereafter in terms of, you know, requests for parliamentary debating time, or the way that we'd go about preparing the ground for stuff that might be controversial, that we're not necessarily going to agree on. But if you do a little bit of groundwork, You can disagree without being disagreeable.
[00:12:37] Mark D'Arcy: This mainlines back to something that a lot of the SNP's critics in Westminster say, which is that they don't actually have much reverence for or interest in the institution. They basically see it as a place where they can stage acts of theatre and performance art, but as you say, perhaps generate a spike in membership or a spike in your poll numbers back in Scotland.
[00:12:55] Patrick Grady: Well, spikes in poll numbers are always very helpful, and most political parties try to achieve that, as they do with spikes in membership. I mean, in reality, I mean, we can point to legislative achievement. Some of our members have had quite important Private Members Bills passed. We've had amendments accepted to government legislation on a number of occasions, once almost triggering a division, because no one could believe that the government was accepting our amendments. So all the Conservatives voted no, or shouted no, but at the same time we're not in the same position as the Official Opposition party and we're not, even though we have to shadow the government, we're not a shadow government in the same way. It simply wouldn't be possible for us ever to form a government. And we do look at Westminster, I think, with a healthy scepticism, shall we say, at some of the more arcane, uh, practices and if we can use them to our advantage then so be it.
[00:13:44] Ruth Fox: One of the things that strikes from outside is that when the SNP group came in in 2015 it had granite like discipline and that has dissipated naturally over time and obviously you've had a couple of defections to ALBA and so on, but somebody who's occupied the position of Chief Whip, I mean what are the challenges of managing the SNP MPs and the parliamentary business?
[00:14:07] Patrick Grady: It happens to all parties, as time goes on, that there can be a little bit of fraying at the edges. One of the biggest challenges is a very practical, almost pastoral issue, which is the distances that people have to travel. And as I said earlier on, especially younger members with young families, young mums, young dads as well, who often get overlooked. Wanting to be able to spend time with their families, the pattern of recesses, especially in recent years tends to match the English school holidays rather than the Scottish school holidays. So, accommodating those requirements was, was always an important priority. It was one of the key pieces of advice that Mike Weir gave me actually when I took over from him, was to look out for the folk with, uh, with kids and I hope I did that.
[00:14:50] Of course as people develop their experience in Parliament, they might find more opportunity to express views that may be at variance with the established party line, particularly as issues come up that weren't necessarily in the manifesto. The SNP's always had a very democratic decision making process.
[00:15:07] We still have votes at our conferences on policy issues and people are, you know, generally want to sign up to that. And that's true of all political parties as well. It'd be rather odd to sign up to a party that doesn't reflect your general ideological and policy outlook, but of course...
[00:15:22] Mark D'Arcy: I suppose though to interrupt, the main uniting factor is independence and a lot of the other issues that might be dividing lines in other parties only really arise for the SNP after independence is achieved and maybe one of the reasons things have frayed a bit is, is that that moment is now looking rather more distant.
[00:15:43] Patrick Grady: Independence is the key uniting concept for members of the Scottish National Party and that's been true obviously for 90 years of our history. It's been particularly true since we took power in the Scottish Parliament in 2007 and it remains true to this day and it's something I think the other parties sometimes find it difficult to get their head around. Because while we have won elections, and I hope we will continue to win elections, and we will continue to win elections, we still haven't won our cause, whereas both the Conservatives and the Labour Party, their primary purpose is to achieve power and remain in power for as long as possible. The Scottish National Party, you're right, our goal at the end of the day is to achieve independence for Scotland, not for its own sake, but for the social and economic changes that we can bring about with the powers of independence.
[00:16:27] But of course, at the point of independence, it would be for the people of Scotland to choose a government that reflects their priorities at that time, to use those powers of independence to deliver those policies. So, perhaps when polls are slightly on the horizon, people think there's a bit of scope for wider debate, but I think, especially with a new leader and a new First Minister, that unity of purpose will be, will come back to the fore.
[00:16:48] Ruth Fox: We talk on the podcast about the Usual Channels, the business managers, the Chief Whip for the government and the opposition party, but it's primarily the Official Opposition that's involved in that, and then the smaller parties, sort of more of an ad hoc basis. How does it work? I mean, what's your kind of engagement with the opposition and the government business managers?
[00:17:08] Patrick Grady: So the SNP does have a, um, or the third party at Westminster, as it's described in the, uh, Standing Orders, I think described as the second largest opposition party, does have its own place within those Usual Channels. So there will be meetings with government business managers as part of the weekly process of the development of parliamentary business and forward planning, looking ahead, particularly around the timing of opposition days, but also for other business, the timing of recess.
[00:17:33] The dynamics in the chamber on a day to day basis as well, we will be part of that because we're guaranteed a spokesperson in every parliamentary event, whether that's a question or a statement or a debate. And timings are different if it's a government led debate or a backbench debate or, or whatever, but because there's an SNP spokesperson in all of those things, then we will always be part of those channels and discussions, whether that's liaison between the whips on duty, the MP whips on duty that day, or whether it's the official staff at the offices communicating with each other behind the scenes as well.
[00:18:02] So, generally, it moves relatively smoothly, and in fact, it's normally a test of the health of the relationship and maybe the health of the Parliament whether the Usual Channels are, are working. Then as we said earlier on we can all disagree but not be disagreeable. If tensions are heightened or if there's a bit of protest or upset about things going on then if those wheels get a little bit clogged and people aren't necessarily speaking to each other, then things move more slowly and and certainly 2017 to 2019 there was a lot of mud in the wheels.
[00:18:33] Mark D'Arcy: The SNP was particularly between 2017 and 2019, when there was effectively a hung parliament, was a huge factor in parliamentary business. And do you perhaps miss that influence? Do you not carry quite the weight when there's an enormous government majority?
[00:18:47] Patrick Grady: Yes, you're right, Mark. The parliament was, essentially, it was a hung parliament. And it was very difficult for the government to get business through and we carved out on a number of occasions alliances across the whole House from the very dramatic seizing of the Order Paper days to more technical amendments to general policy bills. And the SNP played a key role in that, and if we had sat out or voted differently it could well have changed the result, so there was a significant role for us to play there.
[00:19:15] And it demonstrates the importance of a strong group of MPs representing seats in Scotland with a strong, distinct voice where, you know, we might go into an election and if you have MPs who are part of wider UK parties absorbed into larger majorities, then that distinctive Scottish voice might not be heard quite so clearly.
[00:19:34] So in 2017-19, we certainly did, and I hope we used our influence to as good effect as we could in those days. Post 2019, it is different because the government has had a more stable majority, but not totally. I think the impact of the pandemic and their more free thinking backbenchers has meant that the government still had to work.
[00:19:52] And sometimes, you know, I think they've probably been quite relieved that we sat out votes on purely devolved matters, as I say, as goes by our self denying ordinance. That's probably made government whips breathe a little easier on one or two domestic issues. Equally, sometimes, I think the prospect that we might turn up has maybe helped the government move in certain directions, even if it's just in terms of procedure and allocation of time for debates and things like that.
[00:20:16] So I think we're still able to make our presence felt. And certainly, as I say, the rights and responsibilities that come with being the third party are an important part of that. I mean, you saw Prime Minister's Questions, it was Stephen Flynn who asked the Prime Minister to end the speculation and name the date for the general election, not the Leader of the Opposition. And Stephen can do that with authority because he is the leader of the third party. If that had just come from a backbencher, it wouldn't have had the same effect.
[00:20:38] Ruth Fox: Can you tell us a little bit about the role of the Whips in terms of the sort of the pastoral care and the human resource function, because that's a bit that we probably don't hear that much about. We know a little bit about how they manage legislative business and so on, but that HR function seems to me to have become a more significant element of the role over the last decade.
[00:20:56] Patrick Grady: I think that's right and I think that's something that all the parties are having to find ways of dealing with. I think the demographic of MPs is changing, certainly the gender balance is changing quite dramatically and for the better. The age profile I think is probably getting a bit younger, the life experience will have changed as well, the kind of working environments that people will have come into Parliament from. And that's all for the good, but it needs to be responded to. And I spoke previously about Members of Parliament with young children in particular. You know, you also have Members of Parliament with different kind of health needs. And managing all of that, there is a lot of goodwill and cooperation between the different parties on a lot of those kind of issues. Because they affect everyone, they're human issues. So, um, even though traditionally the SNP wouldn't have taken part in, in formal pairing processes, in reality I think we would, you know, if we had people at short notice with illness or whatever, there would be some informal understandings about numbers that were available and what the impact on votes that would likely be.
[00:21:53] I think the introduction of proxy voting has made a huge difference and I suspect post election, again, if there's another significant change to the demographics of Parliament, that actually, you know, those pastoral support functions, if you like, that help members manage their work life balance a bit more, I suspect will come more to the fore again.
[00:22:10] Mark D'Arcy: We're speaking, as you mentioned, on the day when Rishi Sunak actually called a general election, and in doing so he called time on your parliamentary career, because you're not going to be standing in that election. So as you prepare to pack up your bags in this office, how do you feel about Westminster? Is it a place you kind of had to be in and it was all a bit of an ordeal? Or have you developed, as I suspect some of your colleagues have, a sneaking affection for the place?
[00:22:34] Patrick Grady: Well, I always knew this day would come, and I actually think it's quite important. And in all seriousness, I remember in 2015, being aware of Labour MPs not winning their seats. You know, they were being replaced by SNP MPs. And I've always tried to be conscious that this is a time limited job. It will end one way or another, and so you want to make the most of the time that's available. And you don't know how long that time is going to be. But everybody stops being an MP at some point, and I think colleagues who forget that, who think that this will just go on and on forever, I think firstly will find the adjustment much more difficult when it inevitably comes, or it allows them to get a bit more carried away in here than is necessarily helpful to anybody, including themselves.
[00:23:18] It's been a memorable experience. We couldn't have foreseen anything that has happened. You can never tell the future, but we could not really have foreseen anything that actually happened. When we were elected in 2015, first of all, we were elected on the first SNP manifesto that didn't include a clear route to Scottish independence.
[00:23:37] We had had the 2014 referendum and we said to people in Scotland in 2015, okay, we respect that result. Send us to Westminster and we will make Scotland's voice heard. We will hold the UK government's feet to the fire on the promises that were made, the vows that were made during the referendum campaign.
[00:23:53] And we stuck to that, by and large. But everything changed in 2016 with a Brexit referendum that very few people had foreseen the referendum happening and even fewer had foreseen the outcome. And then that turned into the hardest possible Brexit imaginable. When that could have been done very, very differently as well. That could have been done much more collaboratively. And then that translated into all the chaos that followed the 2017 election and then took us into 2019. And just when we thought we had some stability, the pandemic hit and all the changes that that has brought for Parliament and for the whole world.
[00:24:29] So it's been quite a ride. We all got elected in 2015 thinking the next election would be on the first Thursday in May 2020 and we had that time to prove ourselves to our constituents. Um, and at that election we might have gone forward to, you know, to press the case for independence once again. And, and instead it's been completely different.
[00:24:50] So I think it'll take a while for me to develop a perspective on everything that's happened and all the water that's,
[00:24:57] Mark D'Arcy: Because, I mean, it has to be mentioned, you had a pretty rough time yourself. You were suspended from your party whip, you were in all sorts of trouble for a while.
[00:25:04] Patrick Grady: Yep. All of that is a matter of record. All of those procedures were put in place for a reason, the ICGS, the IEP, and I cooperated fully with all of those procedures. And everything that happened there is a matter of public record. And, as I think I said at the time, I very much hope that I've learned lessons from all of that. And I think most people in their professional lives, you know, have ups and downs and they have things that they regret and things that they would do differently and that's as true for my time as a Member of Parliament as it's true for other aspects of my political career.
[00:25:37] Of course there are things I would have done very differently if I had my time over, but I'm still very proud to have represented the people of Glasgow North as a part of the city that I'm incredibly fond of and incredibly proud to have represented. It's a wonderful, diverse community with so many different groups of people from so many different walks of life, from the, the, the university to some of the most highly deprived places in Scotland and that has brought perspectives that have allowed me to speak in the Chamber on a whole range of topics that are important to all of the different people that live in Glasgow North. And for many of them we're able to take forward cases, individual situations that we've been able to resolve, houses for people, benefit payments for people, energy bills that needed sorted, visas, settlement for people that have come from very different and difficult parts of the world, and then to be able to use all of those experiences to help shape policy.
[00:26:31] Whether it's minor amendments to laws, or whether it's voting up or down huge matters of constitutional significance, it's a great privilege. I think it's important not to become too comfortable. I think when I was elected in 2015, I would never have seen myself going on and on anyway, as I said earlier. This job comes with an expiry date, whether you realise that or not.
[00:26:53] Ruth Fox: If you had a piece of advice for new SNP MPs coming in after the election, what would it be?
[00:26:59] Patrick Grady: Uh, buy a water filter jug because the London water tastes dreadful.
[00:27:07] I'm not kidding. It's the first thing I did.
[00:27:12] Mark D'Arcy: Patrick Grady, thanks very much indeed for joining us on Parliament Matters Whipping Yarns.
[00:27:17] Patrick Grady: Thank you very much.
[00:27:21] Ruth Fox: So, Mark, apart from that warning not to drink the Westminster water, what do you take away from that conversation with Patrick?
[00:27:29] Mark D'Arcy: I got a distinct sense of quite how much the SNP rather enjoyed their new power at Westminster and conversely, I think Patrick's no longer an MP, having stood down, how much they'll be missing it now and feeling the rather brutal reduction in their status they've got with just nine MPs in the Commons.
[00:27:44] Ruth Fox: Yeah, and the way, the way they went, uh, over time from iron discipline to, to almost open factionalism.
[00:27:51] Mark D'Arcy: Yeah, that was extraordinary. I mean, they're almost hovering in midair, defying Westminster political gravity. You know, there never seemed to be a crack. You never got a whisper of dissent and briefing right up to the moment, some years down the line when you did.
[00:28:04] Ruth Fox: Yeah. Well, Mark, I think that's all for this week's episode. So we'll be back soon with another whipping yarn. But for now. Goodbye.
[00:28:11] Mark D'Arcy: Goodbye indeed, and look forward to our next exciting episode with Steve Baker, the rebel commander of the Brexiteers, the unofficial whip of the rebels who forced David Cameron into holding a referendum and then pushed for a hard Brexit against subsequent Prime Ministers.
[00:28:25] Ruth Fox: See you then.
[00:28:26] Mark D'Arcy: Bye.
[00:28:33] Ruth Fox: Well, that's all from us for this week's episode of Parliament Matters. Please hit the follow or subscribe button in your podcast app to get the next episode as soon as it lands.
[00:28:40] Mark D'Arcy: And help us to make the podcast better by leaving a rating or review on Apple or Spotify and sharing your feedback. Our producer tells us it's important for the algorithm to give the show a boost.
[00:28:51] Ruth Fox: Mark, tell us more about the algorithm.
[00:28:53] Mark D'Arcy: What do I know about algorithms? You know, I write my scripts with a quill pen on vellum and then send it in by carrier pigeon.
[00:29:00] Ruth Fox: Well, before we go, a quick reminder also that you can send us your questions on all things Parliament by visiting hansardsociety.org.uk/PMUQ.
[00:29:09] Mark D'Arcy: We'll be discussing them in future episodes, including our special Urgent Questions editions dedicated to what you want to know about Parliament.
[00:29:16] Ruth Fox: And you can find us across social media @HansardSociety to get more content related to the show and the wider work of the Hansard Society.
[00:29:25] Intro: Parliament Matters is produced by the Hansard Society and supported by the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust. For more information visit hansardsociety.org.uk/pm or find us on social media @HansardSociety.
